It was so much fun taking delivery of the new RV - just like you can imagine it would be. As we walked around learning about all of its systems and features, I couldn't stop smiling.
In the two or three days leading up to the big moment, we took several checklists we had found on the Internet (like this one) and compiled our own exhaustive list of things to load before heading out for our first camping experience in the new coach. We had toilet paper, tools, a broom, soap, dishes, and much more. Our pickup truck was full, but I didn't feel bad because I've read more than one account from people who filled a U-Haul trailer with stuff that they took when they picked up their RVs.
By early afternoon, we began transferring things to the coach. Instead of imagining this moment, we were living it and loving every minute of it.
Our salesman at National Indoor RV Center had arranged for us to spend three nights at Stone Mountain Campground in Atlanta. The campground is only four miles from the dealership, so it was a short drive to our first night's stay. My wife drove our pickup truck; we still need to get the towing apparatus.
I had read more than once about the tight entrance into Stone Mountain Park. Let me tell you, they weren't kidding. There I was, driving my brand new coach that I had only pulled out of the dealer parking lot 15 minutes ago, pulling up to these tiny guard booths at the Park's entrance - and hearing the dead branches of some little trees in front of those booths scraping against the sides of my baby. As I approached, it quickly became apparent that my mirrors were going to barely - and I mean barely - clear the booths. I'll bet that the mirrors passed with less than four inches on each side!
Right after you go through the Park's main gate, you need to make a left turn to go down to the campground. Despite the easy ride I had from the dealer to the park, I made a stupid mistake making the turn. When you drive an RV, you can't "think" like someone driving a car. I saw an opportunity to make the left turn during a long gap in the oncoming cars and swung the wheel hard to make a quick turn. There should be no such thing as a "quick turn" in an RV. I came very close to a man and his family stopped on my left; so close that he had to back up. He said a few unkind words and made it clear he was no fan of my driving. I hollered "thank you" out the window and kept on going. And all of this happened with my 18-year old daughter sitting next to me.
As I pulled the rig into the camp registration area, a camp host named Rick and I talked for a minute and he was kind enough to offer up some pointers about getting to our site. When my wife returned from the registration desk, Rick said he would lead us to the site and help me park it.
Following his directions, I turned the RV around and headed down a road towards our first camp site in the new coach. The small road didn't have many people on it and it looked like it would be an easy ride all the way. Until we made a right turn. By the time the wheel straightened, we were on a one lane, crowded street in a loop of RVs, with many of them and their toads hugging the shoulders of the pavement. People were walking right alongside the road on both sides, forcing me to go very slowly and carefully all the way to our site around another corner. As we rounded the corner, we saw the premium sites (the dealer had set us up with one of them) and were pleasantly surprised to see that they were spacious and all had views of the lake. Rick got out of his golf cart and directed me into the site without any problems, thanks in large part to the guy in the site across from ours who saw what was going on and moved his truck.
After stabilizing the coach with the levelers, I got out and made all of the connections. The first thing was to unbox the new Surge Guard surge protector and get power going. Then I attached the new water pressure regulator to the coach's potable water hose and made that connection. Then was the sewer connection (I was surprised that I didn't have to use the sewer hose extension that we had asked the dealer to provide because we thought the one that came with the coach was too short). Finally, I unpacked the new coax cable I had bought at Target and connected the cable TV. Everything worked the first time out. The only thing I forgot, but remembered a couple of hours later, was to open the gray water drain.
We were in business. Ready to camp in our brand new coach.
Wow. What a day!
Saturday, November 28, 2015
Pictures of our new 2015 Dutch Star 4369
We were lucky to find one of the few remaining new 2015 Dutch Star 4369's. When we looked on the Internet - not two weeks ago - we only saw about fifteen listings. The one that we found and bought has the following features that we really wanted in a Dutch Star:
Unless otherwise indicated, these photos were taken by the staff at National Indoor RV Centers in Lilburn, GA and appeared in the online ad that saw when shortly before we made our first inquiry.
- Couch
- Recliners
- Dinette with the roll-away table
- Awning with LED lights and a wind sensor
- Residential refrigerator with in-door water/ice dispenser
- Kitchen window
Unless otherwise indicated, these photos were taken by the staff at National Indoor RV Centers in Lilburn, GA and appeared in the online ad that saw when shortly before we made our first inquiry.
When we first walked through the Dutch Star more than a year ago, we looked at the options for exterior colors. Of the standard schemes they offered, my favorite was Bon Bon. It's a combination of black, beige, white and beige-brown (almost gray). Another bonus for us when we found this coach online was that it had the Bon Bon colors.
All Dutch Stars are painted so that the sides of the slides match the designs on the sides of the walls as though it were one continuous design. The colors here allowed us to have a dark look while still "matching" our interior colors.
In the interior, we opted for the two recliners opposite the sofa. The cherry cabinets were a plus because we had originally ordered those anyway. While they may darken with age, the grain in the wood gives the entire coach more texture and goes very well with the cordova furniture. The floor tile was a surprise because we had thought about putting in something lighter. However, we had always liked the darker tile because everything looked good against and it has lots of variations that give it a more elegant appearance. And no, we didn't keep the orange pillows.
We were lucky to find this particular rig because it has the roll-away dinette table. The table is made of several segments that are literally rolled into the buffet under the window. When it's fully pulled out, it's about 48 inches long - plenty enough to seat four people to eat or play cards. I posted a lot about our original decision regarding the dinette in an article called Choosing a dinette.
These photos give you an idea of the rest of the coach, with a picture of the rear bathroom sinks and the bedroom. The entire floor plan and most of the features of this 2015 model are the same as in a previous post called Interior features of the 2016 Dutch Star 4369.
I've already spent a lot of time describing the 4369, so let's get on to the our first night out!
We just got our new coach!
Given the issues with the 2016 Dutch Star front axle weight, we looked at our options and decided that we would do our best to find a 2015 that was as close as we could possibly get to the 2016 rig that we canceled.
Searching the Internet, we weren't surprised that the number of 2015's was dwindling fast. We got lucky when we found one that not only had the couch/recliners/maple cherry/roll-away dinette we had chosen, but had the optional kitchen window and the Bon-bon exterior (black/white/beige) that I had loved when I first saw the 2015 models more than a year ago. It was hard to give up the 2016's escape door, passive steering tag axle and our 40-something customizations, but we knew that the end result would save us a lot of money, be safer, and get us into a coach that had all of the things that made us fall in love with the Dutch Star.
The one we found was located at National Indoor RV Center in Lilburn, GA - a suburb of Atlanta. On November 19, we called them and asked a lot of questions and gave them a credit card deposit to hold it for us. On the 20th, we drove to Atlanta from Orlando, looked at it, drove it, added a larger deposit, and then made the trip back to Florida. Fourteen hours on the road that day, but the two and a half that we spent in Lilburn was well worth it. After years of research and a canceled order, we had found our new coach.
Yesterday, we picked it up. The technicians at NIRVC let us through all of the systems, explained everything in detail and answered our questions. Our salesman arranged for us to spend three nights at the Stone Mountain Campground, only four miles from the NIRVC dealership.
One of the things we had ordered in our 2016 coach was the Girard Nova awnings. I liked them for three reasons: the two stage "break" in the awning that provided an angle for a bit more shade, the LED lights along the edge of the awning, and the wind sensor. The coach we bought doesn't have the Nova awnings, so I thought that we had lost all three of the features. As it turns out, the standard awnings have the LEDs and the wind sensor, so we lost very little. This was a pleasant surprise.
I'll talk about our first night experience in another post, but I want to take a few minutes to thank some really great salesmen and technicians.
We ordered our 2016 at Independence RV in Winter Garden, FL. Our salesman was David Scott, who took the time to show us things on the Dutch Star's and explain a lot of details. David really helped us a lot, and we hated to cancel our order with him because of things beyond his control. When we went looking for a 2015, we looked first at Independence's inventory, because we wanted to buy from David. It just didn't work out because they had none in stock. David is a nice guy and we highly recommend calling him if you are interested in anything on their web site.
Our salesman at National Indoor RV Center was Tony Morse. Tony followed through with answering our questions, on the phone and by e-mail. He took us around the dealership and introduced us to a team of incredible professionals, including Stephen Riexinger (Service Manager), Justin Townley (PDI Manager), Mike (the guy who conducted our walk-through) and Luis Grove, the sales manager. What really impressed us with NIRVC was that everyone we talked to not only bent over backwards to answer our questions, but openly volunteered their cell phone numbers so that we can call them any time we need help. What? That kind of dedication is amazing. I actually took them up on it the first night out. At one point, Steven even told me that he would come out to my site - on a holiday weekend - to help me. The people at NIRVC have a steadfast commitment to customer service and should teach this stuff to other dealers.
Next up, I'll show off our coach with a few pictures, then follow that with a write up describing our first night out: what went wrong, what went right and what we learned.
Tuesday, November 24, 2015
Considering our options
When we canceled the order for our 2016 Newmar Dutch Star 4369 because of some weight issues and uncertainty about the solution, we knew that there were just a few paths we could take:
For us, this option was full of potential "gotchas". First and foremost, the proportional valve solution being investigated by Newmar and Freightliner may or may not solve the problem. Everyone thinks that it will take some weight off the problematic front axle, but it will add weight to the other axles. That might not be so bad, except that quite a few people believe that the most weight that could be taken from the front is 200-400 pounds. Typical weights with full fuel, water tanks, people and a reasonable amount of cargo are right up to the maximum 17,000 pounds - or they are exceeding it by several hundred pounds. There isn't much margin, and a lot of people think that the "solution" is merely a band aid.
This is a good, viable option for those willing to wait - with one big caveat. Newmar hasn't announced what they're doing to the 17's and customer service basically says they don't know yet how the axle weight issues will be resolved in the 17's.
In the same price range as the 2016 Dutch Stars and of comparable build quality and customer satisfaction are Entegra and Tiffin RVs. If you spend some serious time reading Facegroup groups like Big Rig RVs and Full-Time RVer, and following the topics in forums like irv2's Newmar Owners Forum, you'll soon discover that Entegra is appreciated for their build quality (similar in many ways to Newmar's) and Tiffin seems to have many devoted and very satisfied customers. If we were to start looking at other manufacturer's, we would certainly begin with these two.
More than a year ago, we decided that the coach we really wanted and preferred above all others was the Dutch Star. We visited some dealers and then went to the show in Tampa and felt sure that either the model 4018 or the 4369 was the coach we wanted to buy. After lots of walk-throughs, a lot of research, and discussions with owners, we locked our sights onto the 4369. It seemed like the perfect floor plan and it had a phenomenal chassis.
- Wait and see if they would fix it in the 2016 model.
- Wait to order the 2017 model - if the problems were fixed (to our satisfaction)
- Look for something from another manufacturer
- Order an earlier but similar model of the same type
After a lot of discussion, reading every post we could find in the forums and scouring the Internet for information, we came to the following conclusions about each of these options.
Wait for a "fix" to the 2016
For us, this option was full of potential "gotchas". First and foremost, the proportional valve solution being investigated by Newmar and Freightliner may or may not solve the problem. Everyone thinks that it will take some weight off the problematic front axle, but it will add weight to the other axles. That might not be so bad, except that quite a few people believe that the most weight that could be taken from the front is 200-400 pounds. Typical weights with full fuel, water tanks, people and a reasonable amount of cargo are right up to the maximum 17,000 pounds - or they are exceeding it by several hundred pounds. There isn't much margin, and a lot of people think that the "solution" is merely a band aid.
Another aspect of this possible resolution is that Newmar Customer Service management called quite a few customers in mid-November and told them that Freightliner was going to take "10 to 12 weeks" to develop a solution. Once Newmar has Freightliner's part, they have to test it. Simple math shows that Newmar isn't likely to begin testing until mid-to-late February. By the time it's tested and available, it seemed to me that we wouldn't get the word (good or bad) until late March at the earliest. If you try to re-start your 2016 order in late March, you risk them not having enough chassis. And besides, you can order the 2017's beginning just 8 weeks after that. If we were going to opt for this path, we may as well just wait and order a 2017. Scrap this option.
Wait to order the 2017 model
This is a good, viable option for those willing to wait - with one big caveat. Newmar hasn't announced what they're doing to the 17's and customer service basically says they don't know yet how the axle weight issues will be resolved in the 17's.
Simply put, if we opted to wait for the 17's, it would be May before we'd know what they did. And if the solution was reasonable, it would likely be next October before we could take delivery of one. Lots of ifs and maybe's. As a matter of fact, too many. If the 17's are like any other year, we'll likely see a jump in the price, too.
We aren't willing to wait another year and see. Pass on this option.
Look for something from another manufacturer
In the same price range as the 2016 Dutch Stars and of comparable build quality and customer satisfaction are Entegra and Tiffin RVs. If you spend some serious time reading Facegroup groups like Big Rig RVs and Full-Time RVer, and following the topics in forums like irv2's Newmar Owners Forum, you'll soon discover that Entegra is appreciated for their build quality (similar in many ways to Newmar's) and Tiffin seems to have many devoted and very satisfied customers. If we were to start looking at other manufacturer's, we would certainly begin with these two.
Taking this path is difficult because we have invested so much time in studying Newmar and its products. Despite the current problems with the front axle GAWR and the overall weight issue, we know that they build a quality coach and are normally very responsive to their customers. Starting over is daunting. We originally looked at all of the major manufacturers, including these two. But we kept coming back to Newmar for a reason.
Order an earlier model of the same type
More than a year ago, we decided that the coach we really wanted and preferred above all others was the Dutch Star. We visited some dealers and then went to the show in Tampa and felt sure that either the model 4018 or the 4369 was the coach we wanted to buy. After lots of walk-throughs, a lot of research, and discussions with owners, we locked our sights onto the 4369. It seemed like the perfect floor plan and it had a phenomenal chassis.
We really hated to see the coach we wanted slip through our fingers because of a technical glitch. Maybe it makes sense to buy a used pre-2016 model. We could save some money and still get the same floorplan and basic chassis features we wanted.
The biggest problem would be giving up things like the 2016's emergency door and tag axle - not to mention all of the specials we planned to order. But we want to get a coach. It must be safe, without us feeling like we have to pay attention every time we add new cargo or invite an extra passenger. We want a Dutch Star, and we love the 4369. And, after all, we felt this way as we walked through all of the 2015's we saw at the 2015 Tampa Show and soon thereafter at some dealers.
We'll trade some of the new features for confidence in the safety of our coach and enough savings to customize it as much as we want.
After a lot of discussion, this is what we decided to do. We knew that there were still a few new 2015's out there, so we concentrated our search efforts on new 2015 Dutch Star 4369's. The question was whether or not we could find one that had the features (floor plan, furniture, and colors) we've been wanting.
Saturday, November 21, 2015
We canceled our order
Yep. You read that title correctly. We canceled our order.
The front axle weight issue and the lack of an immediate solution gave us serious doubts about buying any 2016 Dutch Star. We love Newmar and will continue to love their products, but they got this wrong and the fix is too far down the road for us to wait.
If you're unfamiliar, Newmar increased the overall weight you could carry in its 43-footers because they bumped up their GVWR by 2,400 pounds. This seemingly solved my previous problem about possibly having very little weight we could put in the coach. So what's the issue?
As more people focused on the overall change, there was considerable talk about the weight on the front axle. Specifically, the front GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) is 17,000 pounds for the 43' Dutch Stars. However, some people that reported their axle weights were showing that they were over that limit by several hundred pounds. Others said that they were within 300 pounds and didn't even have a full tank of fuel. There's a very long thread about this on irv2.com, so I won't dive into the details here.
Safety is #1. So even though it would have been a stunning coach, we decided that we didn't want to constantly worry about our weight on that axle. Because of that, we canceled our order.
As soon as we did, we knew we'd have to make a decision. Wait for Newmar to come up with a solution? Wait to see what they would do in the 2017 models? Get something from another manufacturer?
Newmar has called many of its customers and told them that it is looking to install a valve that will take weight off of the axle and re-apportion it to the rear axles. How much weight? They don't know yet. Freightliner is working a solution but won't have anything until mid-February. Then Newmar has to test it. We figured that if we waited to see if it is a viable (to us) solution, then we wouldn't be able to give the go-ahead on our 2016 coach until - probably - the beginning of April. But since they will probably begin taking orders for the 17's in May, it makes more sense to just order a '17. But Newmar won't say how the problem will be resolved in the 2017's, so it's tough to know what to do.
Look for my next post soon after Thanksgiving. You'll see how we examine our options and reached a few conclusions that make sense.
The front axle weight issue and the lack of an immediate solution gave us serious doubts about buying any 2016 Dutch Star. We love Newmar and will continue to love their products, but they got this wrong and the fix is too far down the road for us to wait.
If you're unfamiliar, Newmar increased the overall weight you could carry in its 43-footers because they bumped up their GVWR by 2,400 pounds. This seemingly solved my previous problem about possibly having very little weight we could put in the coach. So what's the issue?
As more people focused on the overall change, there was considerable talk about the weight on the front axle. Specifically, the front GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) is 17,000 pounds for the 43' Dutch Stars. However, some people that reported their axle weights were showing that they were over that limit by several hundred pounds. Others said that they were within 300 pounds and didn't even have a full tank of fuel. There's a very long thread about this on irv2.com, so I won't dive into the details here.
Safety is #1. So even though it would have been a stunning coach, we decided that we didn't want to constantly worry about our weight on that axle. Because of that, we canceled our order.
As soon as we did, we knew we'd have to make a decision. Wait for Newmar to come up with a solution? Wait to see what they would do in the 2017 models? Get something from another manufacturer?
Newmar has called many of its customers and told them that it is looking to install a valve that will take weight off of the axle and re-apportion it to the rear axles. How much weight? They don't know yet. Freightliner is working a solution but won't have anything until mid-February. Then Newmar has to test it. We figured that if we waited to see if it is a viable (to us) solution, then we wouldn't be able to give the go-ahead on our 2016 coach until - probably - the beginning of April. But since they will probably begin taking orders for the 17's in May, it makes more sense to just order a '17. But Newmar won't say how the problem will be resolved in the 2017's, so it's tough to know what to do.
Look for my next post soon after Thanksgiving. You'll see how we examine our options and reached a few conclusions that make sense.
Sunday, November 8, 2015
Update on weights
In a previous post titled Understanding Weights, I commented about how much cargo we'd be able to carry based on the GVWR of our Dutch Star 4369 and several other factors.
In its printed brochure for the 2016 DS4369 (and all of their 43' models), Newmar shows the GVWR to be 44,600 pounds. However, when you add up the weight that all axles can support - from the same brochure - you get 47,000 pounds. Now I have long understood that adding up all of the GAWR's to get the GVWR isn't necessarily accurate in all cases, but it should be pretty close. In this case, it's quite a difference: 2,400 pounds to be exact.
Since the GVWR in the brochure is 44,600 and the UVW is 39,000 (Vehicle can carry a total of 44.6 and its unloaded weight is 39), that left a total of 5600 pounds of Net Carrying Capacity (NCC). When calculating OCCC (Occupant and Cargo Carrying Capacity), it seemed to me that a lot of 4369's were coming in around 3300 pounds, which meant that I only had 3300 pounds to use for fresh water, people, and cargo. My estimate was that I may have about 1000 pounds to spare. Not much.
Recently, Newmar changed the 2016 Dutch Star specifications on their web site to show that ALL 43' models have a GVCR of 47000 pounds. Several people in irv2 forums said that the number looks correct, since the axle ratings (front to back) of 17K, 20K and 10K pounds were inline with those specified in Freightliner documents. As they changed the GVCR, the NCC changed accordingly. It's now shown as 8000 pounds.
The bottom line is that it now looks like we have a comfortable margin for cargo: 2400 more pounds than I had anticipated. At this time, people are wondering if the actual stickers in the coaches will reflect the new numbers. Is the web site correct? Still waiting to hear more about this.
[Update on 11/10/15] Despite the possibility of having an additional 2400 pounds, there's a lot of talk in the forums about Newmar's 43' DSDP's being almost overweight on the front axle when they're driven out of the factory. By the time you add a full tank of fuel, folks are saying that corner weights (which can tell you how much weight is on the front axle) show that it is pushing the 17,000 pound limit (GAWR-Front). I'm not overly concerned, but this is certainly something to watch.
In its printed brochure for the 2016 DS4369 (and all of their 43' models), Newmar shows the GVWR to be 44,600 pounds. However, when you add up the weight that all axles can support - from the same brochure - you get 47,000 pounds. Now I have long understood that adding up all of the GAWR's to get the GVWR isn't necessarily accurate in all cases, but it should be pretty close. In this case, it's quite a difference: 2,400 pounds to be exact.
Since the GVWR in the brochure is 44,600 and the UVW is 39,000 (Vehicle can carry a total of 44.6 and its unloaded weight is 39), that left a total of 5600 pounds of Net Carrying Capacity (NCC). When calculating OCCC (Occupant and Cargo Carrying Capacity), it seemed to me that a lot of 4369's were coming in around 3300 pounds, which meant that I only had 3300 pounds to use for fresh water, people, and cargo. My estimate was that I may have about 1000 pounds to spare. Not much.
Recently, Newmar changed the 2016 Dutch Star specifications on their web site to show that ALL 43' models have a GVCR of 47000 pounds. Several people in irv2 forums said that the number looks correct, since the axle ratings (front to back) of 17K, 20K and 10K pounds were inline with those specified in Freightliner documents. As they changed the GVCR, the NCC changed accordingly. It's now shown as 8000 pounds.
The bottom line is that it now looks like we have a comfortable margin for cargo: 2400 more pounds than I had anticipated. At this time, people are wondering if the actual stickers in the coaches will reflect the new numbers. Is the web site correct? Still waiting to hear more about this.
[Update on 11/10/15] Despite the possibility of having an additional 2400 pounds, there's a lot of talk in the forums about Newmar's 43' DSDP's being almost overweight on the front axle when they're driven out of the factory. By the time you add a full tank of fuel, folks are saying that corner weights (which can tell you how much weight is on the front axle) show that it is pushing the 17,000 pound limit (GAWR-Front). I'm not overly concerned, but this is certainly something to watch.
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